Thoughts

On apples and oranges

How is a man choosing to identify as a woman not as offensive as white people “identifying” as black? Being black is not a feeling, and neither is being a woman.

You are conflating race and gender as social constructs with race and sex as biological classifications. You are also doing a little trick with the concepts of choice and identity. In other words, your question presupposes similarity where there isn’t any while also blurring the idea of what’s really a choice. Allow me to point out the fallacy in your framing with the following two statements:

A man who chooses to identify as a woman is merely in drag, whereas a male who has no choice but to identify as a woman is a transgender woman. 

A white person who chooses to identify as a black person is merely in blackface (or co-opting blackness or appropriating black culture), whereas a person of European descent who has no choice but to identify as a person of African descent isn’t actually a thing.

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9 thoughts on “On apples and oranges

  1. Etihad says:

    So gender dysphoria is a prerequisite for being transgender? Is that measured in every trans person or do we take their word for it?

    You’re saying it’s a “feeling” but it’s no more a feeling than being black is. If it’s not a feeling, how does one know if they are trans?

    • Quinn says:

      I’ll answer this and assume you’re asking in good faith.

      Dysphoria generally isn’t considered a prerequisite for being trans, but it’s extremely common. There are probably inventories (similar to depression inventories) that could be used to measure dysphoria in a clinical setting, but it would all ultimately be self reported. Dysphoria varies wildly and not every trans person experiences it.

      The subjective feeling/experience you’re looking for which is most often considered the prerequisite to being trans is actually gender euphoria. It is the feeling that existing in the world as a specific gender is so right and correct that it is unquestionably your own truth.

      To the best of my knowledge there’s no real analogue for race or racial experiences. Racial and ethnic identity does not, to the best of my knowledge and experience, have the same intrinsic quality.

      • Etihad says:

        So gender dysphoria/euphoria, while common, are not prerequisites to being trans, cannot be adequately measured, and it is ultimately a “feeling” that we must accept is authentic from every man claiming to be a woman. If that’s how it is, then there’s no reason a white person can’t identify as black.

        There was a BBC documentary recently on the Tavistock clinic and another one on Detransitioners. There’s a paper called ‘Freedom to think: the need for thorough assessment and treatment on gender dysphoric children: https://bit.ly/3jEkjBb I suggest you check these all out.

        • Sarah says:

          That’s not how it is, there’s plenty of resources out there available that don’t confirm your beliefs, and the medical profession has long accepted that transgender people deserve care. Only a minority of people regret transitioning. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kwxkwz/dispelling-the-myths-around-detransitioning

          Not to mention, it is mainstream fucking medicine to diagnose people based on their subjective feelings without anything to “measure” it, including in psychiatry and for chronic pain.

          No one conducts their lives based merely on things that are measurable and quantifiable by numbers, including you, and the reason you and so many other people show up to argue against the existence of trans people is because you think it’s icky and threatening. There’s no other reason to be so shrill about it.

          • Etihad says:

            Being diagnosed with depression via subjective feelings isn’t quite the same thing though, is it? More recent articles than a 2015 VICE story also point to an increase in detransitioners and those who regret transition.

            I’m not denying the existence of trans people or saying they don’t deserve care, I’m raising valid concerns about the ease with which transition or identification is achieved. Check out the link and documentaries I recommended (documentaries aired recently by the super liberal BBC). Acknowledging the issues does not make one a TERF or transphobic.

    • whoami says:

      since you intentionally misread what quinn above said very clearly, let me reformulate shortly :
      gender dysphoria before transition isn’t a prerequisite, but gender euphoria after transition is 🙂

  2. K says:

    A person can have no choice to but to be a sociopath, but that’s not a valid identity choice.

    You got it wrong coke, it’s not about choice or lack of choice.

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