Advice

On three responses

i told a guy that i’ve always wanted to get a tattoo. he said, “why put a bumper sticker on a ferrari.” do i have a stick up my ass or is that kinda fucked up.

 

Response #1 (The High Road): “Comparing me to a car is a particularly disrespectful form of objectification, and it’s insulting to imply that a tattoo would somehow be degrading.”

Response #2 (The Middle Road): “You don’t get to have an opinion on what I should do with my body.”

Response #3 (The Low Road): “You put racing stripes on a Ferrari, motherfucker.”

Standard

306 thoughts on “On three responses

          • VeryIrritable says:

            Nobody asked you for a cookie and nobody gave you a compliment. Feel free to respond however you want when that happens.

        • Betsy says:

          Nobody is unsure as to what his intent is. The issue is that his worldview is such that he thinks comparing a woman to an object is a compliment.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            That depends on whether there is a continued context. Art in a museum? Yeah, intent is jack shit.
            Giving a Christmas gift? “It’s the thought that counts.”
            Trying to save a life? Good samaritan laws.
            Missing the toilet while standing up? Jack shit.

          • WhoAmI says:

            My bad, I wasn’t being clear enough. The hidden thoughts that go behind actions don’t mean shit compared to said action.
            Except if said action is meant to reveal said thoughts in an interaction where both sides are here looking for that. Which is exactly what art is about. Or gift giving in Western European societies. Flirting outside of the intimate sphere ? Not so much.

            But people in positions of privilege will typically have the tendency to think this isn’t true, and that their intent is important, always, and something everybody else should want to consider and be on the lookout for. In this example ; straight men.

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            I still feel like there’s not enough proof on the flirting case. It could just be gentle probing. One or the other person has to open the door. I defer to Zizek. but I do see what you’re saying about sensitivity, and I maintain we aren’t the ones sensitive enough to know what happened. If this was a trial, I would hang the jury with reasonable doubt.

          • WhoAmI says:

            You open the door by asking them about their life, their passions and ambitions. Their favourite bands. You honestly tell them about what you find so attractive in them. You give them earnest compliments about how good they’ve dressed or how fit they are. And you listen to them. That was definitively a bad spot in the conversation to try and tell her he thinks she looks hot.
            I know if someone managed to tell me how to live my life and make a sport car comparison in the same sentence, they’d be dead to me even for a drunk fuck.

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            That’s cool. That works for you. I wouldn’t have made a Ferrari compliment myself. But this isn’t about us.
            You are trying to impose your own standards by saying “you.”

          • WhoAmI says:

            Those aren’t my standards. Hell, I broke them a couple of times. I’m a rather ill-mannered young man, I’m working on it.
            Those are very low standards for how you address a fellow human being. Whether they have a chacha or not. Manners 101.

          • VeryTired says:

            I’m saying that this is, most likely but not certainly, the equivalent of a social typo. When someone makes a spelling mistake you don’t take them at their word. There are a lot of people here who want to project their own experiences with sexism through that eight word keyhole into two people’s reality. There’s a whole lot of proselytizing about how it couldn’t be interpreted as anything other than sexist objectification. what they don’t realize is that those projections are more about them than the subject. The freedom they claim to be protecting is actually, in this instance, probably a cage. If there’s a continued friendship in this story, do you really think interpreting it in the most hostile manner is appropriate? I’m not saying CQs quips aren’t possibly fully appropriate for the poster. I’ve only ever advocated that there’s a whole lot of possibility space here and I’m the only one who made an attempt to contribute to it. So many have only been reductive in response. As a proof in excercise, imagine any person in your life, take the compliment yourself, and tell me what you might have said? There are no wrong answers.

          • WhoAmI says:

            She doesn’t talk about him as a friend or a man she knows and has interest in. It’s just a guy. He’s not in a place in her life where saying that isn’t uncalled for.

            It’s not “just a typo”. You don’t say that out of nowhere. This sentence is revealing of how he thinks.
            Maybe that’s why you’re all up in this comment section ; you can’t and don’t want to see such a reply as a part of a whole behavior, and only as an outlier to his intent’s data set. That sentence and that context alone bear a lot of unfortunate implications. And the rest is us trying to explain to you why that guy sounds shady to us.
            Having been confronted to related behavior before doesn’t mean we’re paranoid. It means we’re more sensible to it. Are you gonna say the people who can pick up on such clues are liars because you can’t ?

            For what I would have done, I would have said nothing, looked them up and down, walked to the opposite end of the bar, and probably rolled my eyes five times in the process.

    • JC says:

      I would have taken it as a compliment as well. Finding men who will tell you your body is perfect exactly as is are a rarity.

      On the other hand, I can see how it could feel insulting. Without being there to hear the tone, it’s hard to judge. Certainly the poster is right in thinking that she has 100% autonomy over her body.

      • RocketGrunt says:

        He’s not telling her that her body is perfect. He’s telling her that putting a tattoo on her body would devalue her just like putting a bumper sticker on an expensive car devalues the car. It doesn’t matter what his tone was; it’s still a degrading comment no matter how you say it.

        • Vardy says:

          Do you think his intent was to degrade or devalue her? Probably some young guy and the Ferrari analogy was the first analogy he could think of. You’re outraged because you want to be outraged.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            Guys like this may not be consciously intending to degrade, but that doesn’t mean it’s not degrading.

            The mentality that such things are “compliments” that we should be grateful to get arises from the mistaken male notion that how appealing they find us is in any way relevant when it comes to our self worth. On top of that, there’s the overwhelming sexist, self-centered assholishness of declaring that we don’t get to decide for ourselves what we consider to be compliments.

            If you say something to a woman and she says it’s not a compliment, it’s not a fucking compliment. If she tells you it’s offensive and objectifying, you try to understand why she sees it that way and you apologize. Only an asshole insists that she’s wrong by telling her how important his opinion ought to be to her.

            Men may not be aware that they’re being assholes because they were raised with the concept that women are valued based on men’s opinions. It’s understandable to be ignorant if you’ve never been taught any better, but once you’re told by the women themselves that they do not appreciate it, then you’re responsible for adjusting your attitude.

            Nobody has to intend to be an asshole; that’s easy. Sometimes you have to intend NOT to be an asshole.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            I would actually say that being an asshole does require intent. It’s someone who consciously breaks a rule or takes an unearned liberty. If someone doesn’t do it consciously, they are not an asshole, they are incompetent, or ignorant. You can point out that someone violated your expectation after the fact and their not apologizing might make them an asshole. But up until the time they know how they are expected to behave, its incompetence or ignorance; not asshole. Never assume maliciousness where incompetence will suffice.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            Nope, sorry, I’ve known too many assholes. Almost none of them are aware that they’re assholes. That, in fact, is what makes the biggest assholes, because they’re in utter denial about their behavior being rude, disgusting, or cruel, so they just sit there and obliviously defend it instead of taking a good hard look at themselves and making an effort to be a decent human being.

          • ExtremelyIrritable says:

            See, I’m with you there. When someone is told they are violating an expectation or norm and they don’t reflect or try to empathise, then I’m with you. Definitely asshole brand douchebag.

            Mounting a defense against their behavior…that’s getting into particulars and I don’t actually like hypotheticals as much as it might appear from this recent romp of ridiculous proportion.

      • Vardy says:

        You must be a seriously cynical soul to interpret that as disrespectful. The dude offered his opinion (he doesn’t think she should get tatted), and called her perfect in the process. It’s stunning that you think he disrespected her.

        • Strangely Rational says:

          She didn’t ask his opinion. It’s the height of male arrogance to think that a woman commenting on something to do with her body is an invitation for him to rate her appearance and tell her she’s wrong about what she wants to do with it.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            Well, if it came up in casual conversation then there’s a de facto opinion request. Mostly because in this context it’s in regards to ornamentation and strictly nothing actually functional in the framework of messaging…unless it’s a swatstika or “fuck me here” tramp stamp. Nobody announces their tribal intent without expecting some kind of validation or invalidation. So, let’s assume the assessment was actually garnered with fair intent.

            Framing it in terms of ownable objects is an honest and mislead step on his part. It is kinda insensitive to the idea of tattoos, but his heart was in the right place in trying to make her comfortable with the idea of not getting ink. To get bent out of shape after someone gives you an honest opinion definitely edges toward ass-stick territory. There’s no reason both can’t be true in degrees.

            All in all, it’s an opportunity to communicate. You can use it to tell him what you think about objectification. You can use it to move him closer or further away. If you want to bond more, you’ll “yes, and…”

            Alternate responses:
            “I’m not planning on selling the car.”
            “If you can read this, you’re too close.”
            “You can’t see the bumper sticker when you’re driving the car.”

          • Vardy says:

            Is the problem that he rated her appearance or the analogy he used? Or that he didn’t ask permission? Does his intent (positive) not count for anything?

          • JC says:

            Yes, what veryirritable said. If anything, he was a bit dismissive of tattoos. That is not the same thing as objectifying the woman. He was giving her a compliment, and all you fools having a major fit about it are part of what gives feminism a bad rap. At best, it’s a minor offense and was meant as a compliment.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “Well, if it came up in casual conversation then there’s a de facto opinion request.”

            No there fucking isn’t. If someone wants your opinion about something, they will ASK you directly. If you’re not directly asked to give your opinion, it is unsolicited. That’s the definition of “unsolicited,” not being ASKED.

            If I announce that I am pregnant, I did not just ask for your opinion about how my body looks, whether I’m too young or too told or too poor to be having a kid, or whether I should get married first.

            “his heart was in the right place in trying to make her comfortable with the idea of not getting ink”

            Ah, so he’s decided that she shouldn’t get a tattoo, and now he’s just trying to help her feel good about that decision by making sure she understands that she’s already appealing to him, which is obviously going to be such a relief for her. How very chivalrous of him!

            If there’s something a woman should appreciate, it’s a man trying to save her from making a mistake with her body.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “Is the problem that he rated her appearance or the analogy he used? Or that he didn’t ask permission? Does his intent (positive) not count for anything?”

            Yes, yes, and no.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “There’s a lot of hyperbole in there. It’s hardly ‘the height of male arrogance.'”

            In considering this some more, I can agree on this point. Male arrogance can achieve far greater heights, if there even is an upper limit at all.

          • ExtremelyIrritable says:

            If you’re really a feminist you will admit that female arrogance can reach the exact same height. 🙂

          • Confused says:

            Reminds me of a comment by zizek…Something along the lines of someone needs to cross the line in order to become intimate (not always sexual). Given that initial attempts may be clumsy..IE don’t know each other’s stories well enough to exactly conjure the intended emotional or intellectual response. The issue I have is breaking it down into micro micro detail is to fail to see the person’s around you or otherwise be looking for some weird ‘mirror’ or desire. Not understanding someone’s framing as it was intended is the exact same crime as has been perceived…It must be love

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            @confused my point would be that if you only look for the perfect mirror, you will never see yourself how others do…an enabling echo chamber of two.

        • grouch says:

          Let’s be clear, he didn’t say something along the lines of “I think you look great just as you are, and I think you’d look better without a tattoo”, he compared her to an object, and drew an analogy between her and the object. The first one could be replied to with “Okay. Well, I want one anyways”, and the second one has all kinds of moralising connotations of ruining one’s self.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            I understand that you are sensitive to objectification, and rightfully so. Sex has been commoditized and genders disadvantaged. But on a moment to moment scale, is the change you want to see in the world really a hostile interpretation of what was meant in the best possible way? nobody is going to crush or even subvert the patriarchy by smacking people who aren’t friendly in exactly the way you would like.

          • grouch says:

            I don’t think that was being friendly. It sounds like an attempt at instilling shame, masquerading as a compliment. It smacks a bit of entitlement and possessiveness to compare a woman to an object like that, and then complain about what she wants to do with her body.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            Yow. That sounds like projection. Most guys I know aren’t plying that “neg” shit and would just be klutzing their way to a compliment. But hey, maybe you live in a game zone where that’s more common. I feel sorry for everyone who lives in that world.

        • alpha says:

          He did disrespect her and the fact that you think he did compliment her and feel the need to repeatedly insist that he didn’t degrade her implies that you hold the same mentality.

          There are people in the world who find tattoos ugly. He could have easily said he didn’t like tattoos. He instead said that tattoos (using the delightful comparison he chose) devalue the person they’re on and make them look cheap. She could be the unicorn 10/10 to him and a tattoo would make her a 3 in his eyes. (Might as well use the rating system while we’re at it because why the fuck not.) He can give his opinion but she didn’t ask for what he thought based on what was given. He is telling her that she looks good but she would look cheap with a tattoo. So please tell me in what world that would be a grade A let me drop my panties for you right here compliment.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            I’m sorry, but everyone making value judgements because of a little clumsy poetic license need to fuck right off. Holy shit, did someone compare your eyes to limpid pools? That’s okay because you like limpid pools. But omg, if it’s a comparison you don’t like, well then that’s evil patriarchy objectification bingo.
            Did he communicate what he finds attractive, yes. That is not the same thing as disrespect. Even if you really think you can tart up some offense there; you should pick your fucking battles.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “Did he communicate what he finds attractive, yes. That is not the same thing as disrespect.”

            Yes, it is disrespectful for a man to assume that a woman he’s not in a relationship with gives a shit about what he finds attractive about her, especially when he’s in the process of telling her what she should or shouldn’t be doing with her body as a result.

            You know who gets to decide what’s respectful to women? WOMEN.

      • Romanian Psycho says:

        I sincerely think that over exaggerations like this…is what gave us Trump. Many are fed up..the idea that making a joke is taking as insulting, when the INTENT was not [ we don’t know, but to me it sounds like a mega macho meta joke ] is what makes all of this baloney.

        Getting cat-called is bad enough and worth complaining about for sure. Feeling entitled to outrage at any fricking joke is just ludicrous.

        • Vardy says:

          I was going to say that too, but didn’t want to get political. You’re right though. The people who read this e-mailer’s message and think “sexist” or “disrespectful” are exactly the kind of PC crowd that has put America in the shit it’s in today.

        • The Coquette says:

          Over-exaggerations didn’t give us Trump. Misogynistic white men blind to their own sense of entitlement gave us Trump, and if you think it’s politically correct to clap back at a guy for making unsolicited comments about your body, then you’re part of the problem and you can seriously go fuck yourself.

          • Vardy says:

            Unsolicited? She told this guy she always wanted to get a tattoo, and he replied with a totally valid opinion which is that no, in his opinion she should not get a tattoo because she’s already perfect the way she is. It’s a completely harmless conversation in my view.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            How is telling someone you’re getting a tattoo soliciting their opinion about your body?

            Comments about your body are unsolicited unless the person making said comment was directly asked for an opinion.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            @strangelyrational It is a solicited opinion if you’re having a conversation. Consider that you don’t walk up to strangers and say, “I’ve been thinking about getting a tattoo.” If you’re in an actual dialogue with someone, you expect them to have a response. So the real question here is what the context of the posters conversation was. If she didn’t expect a response, then it wasn’t a dialogue and that guy had no idea how alone he was in that moment. I am guessing she wasn’t just standing at a bus stop and wondered aloud.

          • Bry says:

            Jesus, I’m so sick of everything being correlated to Trump. General ignorance and broken political and election systems gave us Trump. Isn’t it bad enough that he makes everything about him without everyone else following suit? I am the father of a very cute four year old and everyone, male and female, always says how cute she is. They never care or ask that she’s polite and smart. I always have to tell her that yes, she is beautiful but that it’s much more important that she is polite and smart. I’m much more glad that she has been reading since age three than the fact my genetics happened to make a cute kid. I fucking hate our society.

          • it's clear says:

            Healthy people wouldn’t bring up Trump in this discussion, which doesn’t even qualify as an extremity (P.S. I voted for Hilary; have disdain for Trump). Posts and responses like these make me so grateful for women who are secure in themselves, not always on the defensive, can view things from multiple perspectives, and recognize that attraction is the initial reason any two people are together. It’s biological. If you deny this, then right away your head is not screwed on straight.

            We don’t know the nature of their relationship. Stranger? Friends? Boyfriend? From one perspective this hardly qualifies as an asshole comment. From another perspective he’s just complimented her, albeit lousily/douchey (if that’s who he is then why are you spending time with him? why do you care what he has to say? …NEXT).

            It’s not an unsolicited comment by the way. It’s an opinion, logically we can presume it’s inside the context of a conversation; it’s not a wrongdoing, or sleight of hand. You’re way too shut off to opinions from men, Coquette. What did Daddy say/do to upset you? (yeah, you’ve probably been hearing comments like that your whole life because you magnetize them with your extreme bullshit)

            Here’s another perspective: sounds to me like this dude cannot stand tattoos. That’s his knee-jerk reaction. So what? If he’s a friend or date or boyfriend, he has the right to state his opinion on a topic she brought up. He wasn’t cruel, not even mean. She hasn’t gotten a tattoo yet either, why not? She’s “always wanted one” so why doesn’t she already have one? What’s the hold up? If it matters so much to her why doesn’t she just get it and stop talking about it? I’m playing devil’s advocate on purpose. Learn to think in different ways than an extreme linear feminist would. It’ll do you a lot of good.

            You might not know it, but I know you used to be better, Coquette, how did you go backwards over the last 7 years? And plummet in the last 2? Now this website only documents you, blindly latching to your feminist-missile (which fires from a victim mentality launch pad) and always blasts off to battle against misogyny, even when it’s a mirage 74% of the time and actually “misogyny” or an uncalled for, long shot. You are constantly blowing things out of context. This is why good worthwhile men dodge you for the long haul. They always will (until you shed whatever deep-seeded contempt you maintain within, and evolve).

          • monochromicorn says:

            excuses excuses excuses, It’s Clear. A great many men just have their heads up their asses, and you’ll bend yourself backwards to tell yourself it isn’t true.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “It is a solicited opinion if you’re having a conversation.”

            It is a solicited opinion if – and only if – it was specifically asked for.

            If you tell a coworker that you’re going out to lunch and they tell you to make sure it’s not too fattening because you’re already at just the right weight and don’t want to get fat, that is NOT a solicited opinion. “Solicited” does not mean “said something about a subject.”

            You really need to open a dictionary if you’re going to be arguing about what a word means.

          • ExtremelyIrritable says:

            “excuses excuses excuses, It’s Clear. A great many men just have their heads up their asses, and you’ll bend yourself backwards to tell yourself it isn’t true.”

            Wait, nobody said there aren’t men with their head up their ass did they? But be fair, there are women afflicted with the same problem. Some of them might be posting here. So if the colon fits, you got a hat.

          • Monochromicorn says:

            Ah veryon (what ever your name is), you have your head up your ass about this one.

            Your way way up in this conversation, which is indicating to me that you are exactly the type of heterosexual dude that says these kind of things and then wonders why he can’t get past the third date with a woman.

            You’ve probably been getting feed back on this your whole life, but instead of listening, you debate it as if this were an academic philosophical point.

            Huh.

          • Confused says:

            Ignoring middle classes. Not even trying to appeal to them cause you bought media. Now media is just sour grapes. Without selling papers they had some value as a political tool. Now that that myths busted little other value? Business model of manufactured consent dead!

          • Romanian Psycho says:

            Clap back?
            All i’m saying is that everyone is so sensitive and jumping on “sexism” conclusion like it’s the only one.
            1. The guy made what I feel is a joke.
            Did the joke landed? well, she asked you so she IS conflicted about it…which means to me that she is not sure she SHOULD feel insulted or not. Did she laugh though?
            I am a lot about intent. You can tell what the guy wanted to say etc and maybe he made a sexist joke but the intention was not. That’t he kind of thing that happens in a patriarchal society but this does not mean that you can’t educate people and say ” dude, that wsa not ok because you see…bla bla bla”. Said dude can learn or not, but you did a good job.
            Now, back to Trump, what happens is that a lot people are fed up that every time they do smth that maybe it’s wrong they intent is read as being the worst possible and called on. They end up feeling cornered and misunderstood and in turn they vote Trump. Not the only reason but yeah.
            PS: Women voted for Trump too, a lot of them. So, please, let’s keep it realistic with those” misogynistic white men” shit.

        • Strangely Rational says:

          Women have been valued (or devalued) according to our appearance or other physical characteristics (such as whether we have an intact hymen), sometimes in terms of literal material value like how many goats we’re worth, throughout history. And yes, that still includes today.

          Excuse us for not finding it funny when our bodies are evaluated as material objects. And guess what? We get to decide what we think is funny and what we think is offensive. We’re at least as entitled to that as you’re entitled to be outraged over us not being amused.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            I totally get that. Nobody want to hear what their Dow jones sex rating is. We can also look at it from this guys perspective; he could mean more than one thing at once. He can be communicating that he sees her as attractive. He can be communicating that others like him already see her as attractive. He may be doing it for different reasons too. He could just be trying to make her comfortable. But how she interprets and weighs these values he is proffering speaks more about her character than his.

            “I have been thinking about painting myself purple.”
            “Nobody paints a stop sign purple.”
            “Oh, I didn’t realize you see me as a stop sign. Do you know how offensive it is to be called a stop sign?”
            “Oh god, I’m sorry, I don’t want you to think I need you to be a stop sign!”
            “All you police officers are alike trying to make us into traffic signs!”
            “I’m sorry, i don’t think I’m a police officer, I will go away now.”

          • Daffodil says:

            Yes, heavens knows the most important thing is for women to stay calm and polite when men lob offensive nonsense at us, because we don’t know for sure that they’re shitheads. And if we get angry at being subjected to that kind of double standard, that’s our fault for being bitches.

            Wait which blog are we on.

            (You’re also writing a conversation that didn’t happen here. It’s more like:
            “I have been thinking about painting myself purple.”
            “Nobody paints a stop sign purple.”
            “Wait, that doesn’t sound right, I’mma go ask some people I respect what they think of that.”
            “Yeah, that’s pretty uncool.”
            “BUT WHAT IF HE MEANT IT IN A GOOD WAY.”
            “Don’t care, fuck off.”)

          • VeryIrritable says:

            I’m sorry daffy, but his comment didn’t seem “lobbed” from the posters context. Also, you are missing my point of how ridiculously overwrought this entire thing has become. We are so far into stick up ass territory that trump has gotten involved somehow. Clearly the compliment was written by Putin!

        • Cuttlefish says:

          I can get irritated by excessive political correctness myself, and I do agree that this dude’s comment was nowhere near as offensive as catcalling, but I’m pretty sure gutting the voting rights act, along with a long, focused, ruthless takeover of the GOP by its most insane constituents, decreased funding for public education, and the breakdown of respect for easily identifiable non-biased journalism did a lot more to “give us Trump” than outrage culture on the internet. In fact, I think the whole “Trump won because liberals can’t take a joke/focus too much on identity politics/etc” is not only inaccurate, but also really harmful. The fact that enough morons were willing to vote for a presidential candidate because they don’t like political correctness is the problem–because that’s the one of the most idiotic fucking reasons to justify vote for anyone, and anyone with a basic understanding of civics would understand that–not the excessive political correctness itself.

    • Monochromicorn says:

      No, it’s exactly as stupid as a man telling you you shouldn’t wear makeup.

      Stop telling me what to do with my body. I don’t do things to it based solely on a man’s opinion.

      • Chris says:

        You’re absolutely right.

        Personally, I like no makeup or jewelry, or even hair dye, and you’d never dream of telling me that I should change my mind.

  1. Soooooooooooooooo says:

    It’s making me uncomfortable that u can’t see at all why his comment was rude.

    I can see why white people think black women r always angry because he would’ve gotten an attitude on sight from me. I wouldn’t have had time to type to cq because he would already b apologizing.

    If she was a Ford Taurus in his mind, would he say go ahead and get the bumper sticker? Can u see why this is wrong?

  2. VeryIrritable says:

    I think the real question at the end of the day isn’t about what he said, but what she wants out of it. That ranges from alienation and getting him to go away to being welcoming and building a stronger relationship in one way or another.

      • VeryIrritable says:

        You are not fucking “way ahead of me.”
        There is literally an infinite number of responses in a vast number of directions. So sit your ass back down and let me have my fucking opinion of the situation. It’s just as valid as yours and you aren’t winning a fucking race.

          • Niqi says:

            God, right? All this tired rehashed bullshit. It gets exhausting.

            Please pay veryirritable no mind. Anyone who says someone deserves to live in a world where they’re systematically oppressed because they posted a funny bingo card pointing out that their arguments have been used before is a gross misogynist.

          • Daffodil says:

            @niqi – I’m just enjoying getting under this guy’s skin. Anyone who waltzes into a blog with the tag line “shady advice from a raging bitch” and expects women to have a calm conversation about how maybe they should consider being complimented when guys objectify them is not the sharpest crayon in the box.

  3. Dee says:

    I’m assuming here that op is female, but a good litmus test for whether something is sexist is ‘would it seem offensive/weird/fucked up if said to a man?’. And I don’t think that if it was said to a guy, you’d all be jumping up and down saying that he just can’t take a compliment (because we don’t tend to equate men’s bodies to objects as we do women’s bodies, and also because we don’t expect men to accept and appreciate commentaries on their appearance).

    • Ki says:

      You changed my perspective on this with that litmus test. I agree, if op was a guy that Ferrari comment would seem weird and irrelevant.

    • ExtremelyIrritable says:

      Honestly, if someone said that to me I would definitely take it as a compliment. it might just sail right past me and I would take it at face value. Depends on the situation, person, tone, distance, eye contact, history, whether they were touching me, facing me…but at no point would I think, “holy shit, I’m an object” without some other very extreme cues.

      • Daffodil says:

        Extreme cues like living in a world that objectifies you on a daily basis? For you, being objectified almost never happens, so you can safely ignore it when it maybe does. For women, it happens constantly, so we fight it as much as we have energy and time to do so.

        The experiences of people who walk around in female bodies and those who walk around in male bodies are very different. It’s a one-way mirror – invisible from one side, and really fucking obvious from the other. Learn to see the glass.

        • Dee says:

          This. Also, the aforementioned litmus test isn’t about the reaction of the man, it’s about how the statement would be perceived more broadly. I don’t believe for a second that if a guy said to you ‘why would you put a bumper sticker on a ferrari’ in response to you saying you wanted a tattoo, that you wouldn’t at least think ‘hmm that was kind of a weird thing to say’ (and if not you, then certainly 95% of the people around you; they may not think it was offensive, but they would think it was weird in a way that they wouldn’t if it was said to a woman for the very reasons outlined a million times already – no one bats an eyelid when women’s bodies are commented upon, we’re told to take it as a compliment or as a valid criticism).

      • WhoAmI says:

        As a man who has received similar “compliments” a bunch of times, it flies over your head the first two times, and after that it leaves an empty feeling in your stomach and a weird dry taste in your mouth. It’s unpleasant and uncomfortable and I want nothing to do with people who think it’s okay to make people they want to fuck endure it.

  4. Niqi says:

    Oh my god, I’m so TIRED of arguments to the effect of “well he INTENDED it as a compliment/didn’t MEAN to offend you” and “men who aren’t completely awful are rare, so be grateful for this mediocre and objectifying comment.” Fuck the fuck off with that shit.

      • Betsy says:

        Dude. Get the fuck over yourself. You think a woman is overreacting for disliking a comment and yet you’re butthurt all over this comment section because you didn’t like the asker being offended or Coquette’s response.

        And to address your dumb comment above, women do not have the “same arrogance” as men – see why you guys have more resources and power than us. Seriously, how willfully clueless can you be?

        Go revise how you think of your relationship to your mother. You need to.

        • ExtremelyIrritable says:

          I liked CQs response. I thought there could be more. Jesus fucking Christ. Just because I want to play the game too doesn’t mean I’m trying to stop anyone else. So you should go get over your own self. I fucking dare you to come up with some entertaining lines.

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            yawn. this guy reminds me of a dude i recently talked to who wanted to have a discussion about the types of power women hold over men. i listened, of course, because i’m a woman and was eager to be enlightened. he cited the fact that women have more “resources” than men do (i.e., shelters, domestic assistance programs, etc). he cited that women are more frequently granted custody. he cited that women hold the sexual purse strings — at a bar, women do most of the rejecting.

            after i got done balking at the absolute insanity of what i was just subjected to, i tried to explain that well, of course there are more women’s shelters — it’s a simple matter of supply and demand. of course more women receive custody. that is based on a domestic model that MEN created in order to insure that women stayed home, nurturing, mothering, etc. and of course women turn men down in bars more frequently than vice versa. men are terrifying sometimes, especially when they feel they are entitled to sex.

            like, none of this exists in a fucking vacuum, extremelyirritable. try looking at things through the lens of history, social constructs, and the assumptions that thrive even today — in other words, some motherfucking context.

            it’s a privilege that men get to be considered as individuals with a variety of intentions, and that women need to just be more aware of their feelings and intentions. when we get granted that same privilege, and not treated as one homogeneous group of overly sensitive twats, sure, we can reopen this dialog. until then, try listening to women with the intent of learning something, rather than assuming your voice is always welcome and always necessary.

          • VeryOn says:

            I will bypass a lot of the baggage you’re trying to load only to say this. Your response was far more thoughtful than most. I appreciate that there is a lot of history and continuity that you have to battle daily. And I also understand how I can come across as a “not all men” sort of formulation of motivation.

            And it looks even more grim after the OP explained the age gap. What I wanted personally was to explore more possible outcomes, not more possible labels, conclusions, or insults. What I see happening continuously is confirmation bias. By assuming that “guy friend” is taking an unwelcome liberty based solely in male objectification, then nobody will ever get out of that loop in even the most casual conversation.

            Thanks for being civil if a bit insulting, I think I see from where it came.

  5. Babyella says:

    All of the people that are offended by the asker being offended seem to be thinking of themselves and how they would react in this situation. Try to remember that this isn’t about you. You did not experience the emotions of the original asker. You are a completely different person from them, and it’s okay for them to have a different response than you would. Sure, you can have your own take of how you would react in this situation, but quit applying it to this. The asker was clearly bothered by a comment, and wanted to know if her feelings were valid. You don’t get to tell people how to feel, react, or what to say. Also, none of these responses are out of line with the original comment. In fact, I think the last one is funny as hell, and perfectly demonstrates that she doesn’t give a fuck what this guy thinks.

    If the guy is allowed to state his opinion on her body, then she totally has the right to respond in line with how she is feeling.

    • VeryIrritable says:

      I agree with you in that her feelings are valid. But if she invited someone’s opinion, then the implicit part of that bargain is that she had to listen to it for what it was worth. The worth is very contextualized. CQ threw out some nice quips, but none of them were focused on what the poster might want as a result; maybe. They might, but maybe not.
      OP does seem to be very uncertain, so trying them on is definitely empowering and maybe even spot on. My take is that the situation called for a little less self absorption by both parties.

      • Niqi says:

        “I’ve always wanted to get a tattoo” is information, not soliciting an opinion. That would be “Do you think I should get a tattoo?”

        And I agree, douche’s tiresome cliché response which implies a tattoo would degrade her worth should be listened to for what it was worth. Which is nothing.

        • VeryIrritable says:

          Not if it’s in conversation! Especially if they had been walking around together on a “sorta-date.” When you’re checking each other out as potential mates that’s definitely a “how would you think of me?” And she found out! Mission accomplished. But what she didn’t figure out was what SHE thought about what he thought. But that’s just one possible context of nearly infinite possibility. I totally get that your ideal situation would be that after you say, “I was thinking I might get a tattoo.” The person would remain respectfully silent or change the subject. Or whatever, including my response which would have been, “of what and why?” But poor dude made a move and now everyone’s chopping off the limb he’s on.

          The more I think about it. Your viewpoint really is worth nothing. The only viewpoint that really matters is the original poster. What does it mean to her? And she has to figure that out.

          • Niqi says:

            Her viewpoint was that it was kind of fucked up, but she wasn’t sure if that was a valid viewpoint to have. You’re being a colossal ass by suggesting it wasn’t a valid reaction for her to have and she ought to consider the guy’s intentions instead.

            Because that’s what we need, right? More focus on men and their feelings, and if women object to anything a man says, they should just examine it harder until they stop having silly girl feelings.

            And no one gives a flying fuck about YOUR viewpoint, dude, yet here you are vomiting it all over the comments section. Go masturbate to the importance of your opinion elsewhere.

          • ExtremelyIrritable says:

            I don’t think I am. I’ve made every attempt to value and clarify the posters feelings where they themselves were motivated to write because they were uncertain. Most everyone else here is projecting their own sexist combat context onto the situation and trying to paint this dude as a criminal patriarch when he is at worst guilty of clumsy poetic license. I hold each of the viewpoints of this story in esteem and I refuse to sacrifice the integrity of good will by both involved parties until more context is provided.

            At this time I will take a moment to demonstrate real disrespect, not imagined disrespect. Fuck daffy, and fuck nikki. The proof here is that disrespect requires awareness and violation of expectations. If someone is not aware that they are violating a norm, they are merely ignorant.

            I’m sorry that you’ve all suffered such horrible objectifying experiences that you feel a need to exorcise them from this demon child whom you have never even met. I know that sounds like I’m being facetious, but I’m serious. You all leapt to a narrative of disrespect and objectification where mere incompetent flirting would have been the end of the story and “use a quip to set em straight” would have been the moral. Nuance is dead, and it goes into the night air on a burning pile of hyperbole and gross exaggeration.

            What I found incredibly disgusting was the attempt to fence me into a stereotype and I was directly insulted. That bingo “game” is in itself a hypocritical over generalization. You should be ashamed to reference it because that’s the sort of game “men” would play.

            If you’re serious about feminism, don’t play games.
            And if you’re daffy or nike, don’t talk to me.

          • Niqi says:

            Good will ain’t worth shit, dude, and you can absolutely be disrespectful without meaning to.

            It was a small comment and the dude was ignorant of the unfortunate implications, but it doesn’t follow that the asker is required to hold his hand and gently guide him past his ignorance to make sure his precious ego stays intact. Insisting women must always be perfectly kind to people who say shitty things to them is one of the ways sexism persists.

            Also, don’t you think you’re maybe taking this a little bit more seriously than the situation warrants? The fate of the universe doesn’t hang on how the asker chooses to respond to this shit, and you’re not the last bastion of human decency. You’re an insignificant asshole.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “Especially if they had been walking around together on a ‘sorta-date.’ When you’re checking each other out as potential mates that’s definitely a ‘how would you think of me?'”

            You think that because a woman said something to someone she describes only as “a guy” about getting a tattoo, that implies she’s romantically interested in him and wants to know if he finds her attractive?

            Male arrogance again. Of course when a woman talks to a guy, she’s probably checking him out as a potential mate and dying to know whether he finds her attractive or not!

            This may surprise you, but we women aren’t romantically or sexually interested in every guy we speak to. We’re not interested in the vast majority of guys we speak to.

          • ExtremelyIrritable says:

            StrangelyRational, that’s only one of the infinite contexts that are possible here. You’re the one insisting that it isn’t the case and therefore trying to justify a malevolent view. I propose a possible context and you act like I’m insisting on that reality? Simply not true. You don’t get to claim I’m arrogant because I attempt a mildly plausible inference. You’re arrogant for insisting without evidence that I am wrong. I would be willing to take the fact that “a guy” is the most neutral stance possible. But responding conversationally with mild flirting is still not some patriarchal objectification beyond a reasonable social fucking transaction that may or may not lead to and entail actual fucking in the future because his intention and messaging is different from hers.

            Additionally you don’t see how you’re removing the posters own freedom to figure out how she feels about it because you’re hell bent on proving how wrong guys are to say whether they like tattoos? CQ built a frame that I thought might be confining and I tried to expand it a little. Sorry, but without more context I’m not willing to buy the Sherlock Holmes bit without showing the work or getting a confirmation. I’m totally willing to reverse many of my statements with incoming data. Until then, I respectfully disagree with you.

            But @ninki oh, I’m projecting? Really? I chose that using a randomized Shakespearean insult generator…so you can extra fuck off with your attempt at psycho analysis. I literally looked it up after typing it. You’re welcome for the vocab. I’ll consider reading your future responses if your first words are thank you.
            Still didn’t read your previous flippity floo. Good luck.

          • Niqi says:

            Thank you for the laugh. Are you seriously bragging about using a Shakespearean insult generator? lmao I was fucking wondering where you pulled that out of. Can’t be bothered to come up with your own insults? Makes sense, given that original thought doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.

            And it wasn’t your randomly-generated insult that I was addressing, dude. It was you feeling the need to tell me you hadn’t read my response, instead of just not reading my response and moving on.

            Also, here’s a logic lesson in return for your oh-so-kind vocab lesson: when someone suggests something as a possibility, the burden of proof is on the suggester, not on others to disprove that it’s possible. This is that “prove god doesn’t exist” bullshit.

            Don’t choke on your own pretension, dude.

          • Niqi says:

            And Strangely Rational is right, guys assume with uncomfortable frequency that just because we’re interacting with them, we’re attracted to them.

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            Ooooh Ninki, creativity is what I got all over your lame ass. I came up with lines when you brought shit to the party. You haven’t created anything. I was creative enough to go and find it, use it, look it up, and learn. That’s something you’re not doing until I make you. You’re the one who tried to spin the table and failed with your community college psych projection.
            I’ve got analogies you don’t even address.
            Your accusations are fucking empty.
            You don’t entertain me.
            You don’t inform me.
            You don’t influence me beyond the opportunity to berate you colorfully.
            I’ve got a far wider range of response than you.
            You are clearly unequipped to make any assault on my esteem.
            Give up bitch.

          • Niqi says:

            How very telling that you’re dismissive because I’m not here to provide you with anything.

            I’m not dignifying your claim that using a random insult generator is somehow indicative of creativity with an argument against it, because that shit is self-explanatory. And reading it once caused enough secondhand embarrassment.

            Your attempt to infer something about me based on my responses was inaccurate, if you were wondering. Shouldn’t surprise me that you’re so unoriginal you can’t even come up with your own argument tactics.

            But god, you’re right, where would I fucking be without a man to explain things to me?

            I’m goin’ to bed. Maybe you wanna think about doing the same yourself, or else spending your time doing something other than spewing bile.

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            Nope. We are back to me not reading anything you write except by skimming accident. Everything I said was perfect and you are as dust.

          • Rainbowpony says:

            That’s the thing Veryon, you can’t logic people out of their feelings and experiences, especially since those feelings are based on decades worth of straight-up objectifying sexism, and tons of nebulous sexism wherein men say ambiguous-shitty things and then tell us our feelings about the possibly shitting things are wrong and the man just knows he’s right.

            Is spilling 500,000 words on this topic bringing you closer to women? Is proving that the tattoo comment is correct in some non-emotional deductive way working for you, socially?

            The reason that dude’s comment about the tattoo is shitty is impossible to describe to someone who doesn’t have the refined senses necessary to detect sexism in all of its forms. To take a different example, imagine someone at a party walked up to you and ask, “what do you do for a living?” Now, as a question, its perfectly valid and someone could argue for hours why that’s a perfectly fine and polite question, and there are any number of cases where that question is fine; thing is, we all have all run into assholes who ask that question to judge you. And you know when a person is using that question to judge you because… of a refined social sense of assholishness that you’ve cobbled together over your life-time of knowing assholes. It’s tiny accents on particular words, they way they look at you, their body posture, the particular phrasing they use…. etc. Anyway, as for the tattoo comment, what I can tell you, as a woman, fucking making a comment about cars and value and women’s bodies and tattoos, while the comment itself can (maybe) be deconstructed forever to reveal no particular sexism (maybe), everything about my past experience tells me that is fucking sexism. Nebulous, I don’t take responsibility for it, ambiguous, shitty sexism that leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth and the man tells you its your fault. And you’ve been told now by several women in this blog, including Coke, so now you know, and you can no longer claim ignorance, and you should move forward knowing that.

            Or whatever man. Keep digging your hole, I’ll be up here talking to the dudes that know how to have a conversation.

          • VeryIrritable says:

            “That’s the thing Veryon, you can’t logic people out of their feelings and experiences”
            …and then you try to do exactly that to me?

            “Is spilling 500,000 words on this topic bringing you closer to women?”
            Which women? Is that my intent? Am I entertained? Sharpening my writing skills against people who have trouble rubbing two verbs together is definitely fun. But…Who fucking cares? I was sick in bed and had little else to do other that watch rapey mc pumpkin nazi fuck the U.S.

            This whole thing has been off the rails and I made a sincere effort to validate 84% of the comments directed at me and made a 100% effort to validate the poster and her “guy friend” even though many want to cut off a dick just because he made a clumsy remark. If you’re going to ask questions about shit “working socially” start with attacking someone who gives you a misguided compliment.

            “…the tattoo is shitty is impossible to describe to someone who doesn’t have the refined senses necessary to detect sexism in all of its forms.”
            Estrogen, the super power that allows you to see social injustice at any scale. You want to write me off because I don’t think it was a monumental offense? Fine. I’ll be sure to fill the space on my fridge where THAT christmas card was going.

            Your own goddamn example proves exactly how wrong you can be, and even could be in this instance.

            “‘what do you do for a living?’ Now, as a question, its perfectly valid and someone could argue for hours why that’s a perfectly fine and polite question”
            …because maybe it is a valid question? I can’t even remember a party where it wasn’t asked at least twice…I mean parties where normal fucking humans hang out.

            “…refined social sense of assholishness that you’ve cobbled together over your life-time of knowing assholes.”
            YEah right, your asshole radar is capable of seeing through a tiny stream of eight words and you can justify judgement.

            “It’s tiny accents on particular words, they way they look at you, their body posture,” …none of which were present in the text presented to us, again proving that you are racing to judgement.

            “…everything about my past experience tells me that is fucking sexism.” Great. Well. My statements have been to the effect, “it might not be sexism.” But you want to try to burn me and discard my own personal years of experience.
            Not having it. I have left every avenue open for recanting, adjusting, accommodating, and reformulating even though I’m as certain as you are.

            “And you’ve been told now by several women in this blog,” …who could all be wrong.

            “by several women in this blog, including Coke,” …I’m not clear on that. If you read it carefully she said

            “if you think it’s politically correct to clap back at a guy for making unsolicited comments about your body, then you’re part of the problem and you can seriously go fuck yourself.”

            I do not classify it as “politically correct” and recognize any womans right to clap back in any situation that makes her uncomfortable sexually or not. So don’t try to hide behind CQ. I am not part of the problem.

            “Or whatever man. Keep digging your hole, I’ll be up here talking to the dudes that know how to have a conversation.”

            That’s a laugh. You’ll be hanging out in an echo chamber that doesn’t challenge you to see anything but your own perspective. You clearly can’t concede a lack of evidence and insist on judgement where none is necessary or required for the resolution of the posters original intent. womp womp.

            And this entire stream of shit from you stems from objectifying the male viewpoint in a framework that insists on seeing his comment as sexist without ambiguity.

            I would restate a number of paragraphs to make the following assertion. You have revealed yourself to be sexist.

            But the thing that I find offensive;
            You have no charity.

          • Monochromicorn says:

            You’ve been commenting this much because you’re sick? Whatever, you doth protest too much, me thinks.

            I don’t have to be nice to you; I don’t owe you charity when you’ve written 105 replies in this thread demonstrating why i shouldn’t extend anything to you on this topic.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            “StrangelyRational, that’s only one of the infinite contexts that are possible here. You’re the one insisting that it isn’t the case and therefore trying to justify a malevolent view. I propose a possible context and you act like I’m insisting on that reality?”

            You’re the one defending someone on the basis of one possibility among “infinite contexts.” I never insisted that a romantic situation wasn’t possible. I merely questioned the motivation behind your suggestion; there is no evidence whatsoever to support it, and it’s a common misconception among men that women who pay attention to them are romantically interested. Especially among the sort of men who feel like a romantic interest on their part could possibly be used as a valid defense for making this kind of comment in the first place.

            If anything, a romantic interest makes this comment even more disgusting and potentially risky, as it isn’t just some mindless repetition of a tired phrase the guy heard from someone else but something that he said with the intention of actively attracting her. Just the assumption of her considering it flattering demonstrates a serious ignorance of women.

            If a guy friend who I knew had no romantic interest in me said this, I’d roll my eyes and tell him why he was being an idiot (although in the case of my male friends, I’d know they’d be saying it ironically to mock asshole dudes who really feel this way). But if I heard this from a stranger or romantic interest as an obvious attempt at flirting, I would feel seriously creeped out and get away from the dude as soon as possible.

            If you understood what it was like for girls and women in our world, you’d understand why we cannot take any chances with guys who we even suspect to be demeaning, disrespecting, and/or objectifying us. Better to risk some clueless guy not getting a date (and maybe learning how not to talk to women in the process!) than for a woman to risk having her boundaries violated by a man whose level of objectification and entitlement are unknown.

      • Babyella says:

        You’re saying “…she invited someone’s opinion,” but did she? She mentioned that she had always wanted to get a tattoo. But she wasn’t asking the guy what he thought about tattoos. She was merely sharing a decision she had made for herself.

        Think of it in a different scenario. Say you were on a date, and you were craving a burger. You tell your date, “I want to eat a hamburger.” Your date replies, “Why would you want to buy a hamburger when a salad is healthier for you?”

        Sure, your date may just be trying to help you, but at the end of the day, they don’t respect that you’re a person capable of making your own decisions. If the asker had been trying to decide whether or not to get a tattoo, then I would say that the guy’s response wouldn’t have been so out of line (even though it’s still a douchey thing to say). However, unsolicited opinions over such trivial shit are annoying as fuck.

        And not only that, but he compared her to a fucking car. I know it’s normal to say that kind of shit these days, but if you really think about it, it’s fucked up. He’s comparing her to an object defined by its utility. Moreover, a Ferrari is a status symbol. I see where you think he’s complimenting her, because it’s an expensive object that makes you look cool and is useful. But it’s not a compliment because it shows that he’s not considering her dignity as a human.

        • ExtremelyAmused says:

          I like the salad analogy. I can see where you’re coming from. But just because someone points out it’s healthier doesn’t mean they are disrespecting you. I know I’ve been around people talking about what food is healthy and nobody demanded an apology.

          • WhoAmI says:

            Because it is typically asked of women to eat healthy and low-fat to be skinnier and easier on the eyes of their male counterparts, with clear disregard for their personal pleasure. “Oh honey, you shouldn’t eat THAT, you’ll get fat and no man will never ever want to have anything to do with you.” Ya feel.

          • KittyNinja says:

            Hmmm, I see that you’re bagging what they’re are raking, and one thing gives me pause that seems to be what is causing people to shut down and maybe miss what you’re saying. It seems like you want us to have a bit more empathy for derps derpin’ out which makes me ask is it so bad to be disrespectful? Plenty of people have shitty manners and they can be grating to some, but that isn’t a moral failing. Just less than ideal behaviors. And manners and how to be respectful continues to grow, but bad people have manners and good people loudly belch at the table.

            Ionno, I just keep thinking about how I have gotten ragey to my friends while I politely eyeroll whenever retelling a story to my coworkers. I know my audience. But lord knows, if someone saw my RuPaul like rant on some dude bro, they would think I was outraged when I was really just trying out some new comedic devises while letting off steam about all the times in the past where I smiled, ducked my head, and believed I would be worth more if x. This chance to express rage is something new to me in my short 33 years, and I am so happy to finally have some language to explain why that shit was troubling to me.

            I like to imagine I’m a powerhouse that ain’t affected by that shit, but my rage is definitely because of real experiences that leave me reactionary. I really can’t blame a sober person for losing patience with an alcoholic (which I routinely experience as someone 5 months sober). Anger at a situation is a step towards accepting and changing, but it behooves those who have the ability to be patient with that anger to do so.

            BTW, former educator here, so I love learners and tend to be more patient and have more tools on communicating those steps than others.

          • ExtremelyAmused says:

            Hey kitty ninja, I’m sorry I didn’t take time to appreciate your thoughtful response sooner.
            Thanks.

      • Cuttlefish says:

        If you think that someone mentioning something they want or intend to do with their body or life = inviting your opinion, you may want to re-examine the way you have conversations. Sexism aside, that’s not how respectful adult conversations work (unless you’re talking a close relationship in which it is understood by both parties that unsolicited advice is welcome. But if it were such a relationship in this instance, the OP would likely have said “my friend” or “my boyfriend”, not “a guy”). There are few things more irritating than sharing news or information about myself with someone else and then having them tell me what they think I should do. Unsolicited advice disrespects the autonomy of the fellow adult with whom you’re conversing. If people want advice, they are capable of asking for it. And if you can’t stand not telling someone your opinion of their life choices, asking “Do you mind if I give you some advice?” first is a common courtesy. As is keeping your mouth shut if they say they do mind.

  6. Faith says:

    My husband said that no wife of his was ever going to have a tattoo. As soon as the divorce is final, I’m celebrating by getting a flying pig tattoo, and he can suck it.

    • Strangely Rational says:

      My first husband said he thought tattoos were a turnoff. I got mine a year before I broke up with him (should have done it sooner), because at that point it was hardly a deterrent.

      • Strangely Rational says:

        I’m not sure if that question was directed at Faith or me (or both), but I can answer for myself anyway.

        Asking why someone likes tattoos is like asking why someone likes paintings (as these are both art forms, it’s a direct comparison). To which I’d respond that it’s too broad a question; there are too many styles and individual expressions to judge as a whole.

        As with paintings, I appreciate certain kinds of tattoos more than others. A well thought-out, long planned, symbolically meaningful tattoo designed by/with a professional tattoo artist chosen for his/her specific talents and paid an amount you’d need to pay for a high-quality tattoo, placed carefully on your body, is a completely different thing from a Tweety Bird tattoo you got impulsively at some random place near the bar where you and your friends drank too much.

        (Not that I would have any problem with someone who did the latter – their body, their choice – but it’s the difference between quality art and mindless doodling, and that makes a difference in my level of appreciation.)

        My tattoo falls into the former category. It’s incredibly personal and symbolic, with very deep levels of meaning. My sister has several in relation to her experiences with mental illness and the death of her stepson. The memorial ones touch me the most. I remember a woman I knew whose 7-year-old son was killed in a car accident she survived; she had his last drawing from a few days prior (him and his family together on a sunny day) tattooed across her back. She was a virtual stranger to me, but seeing the picture of that tattoo had me in tears.

        Then there are the people who get tattoos to cover self-harm scars, whether from suicidal or non-suicidal cutting. That, like the memorial tattoos, goes beyond being a tool for basic artistic expression to one of healing. And it’s different from putting it on a canvas, because it’s something that you’re making a part of your body and carrying with you everywhere you go.

      • Faith says:

        If you’re wanting to know why I like the thought of a tattoo for myself, it’s something I’ve thought about doing for a really long time. I only want just the one, and I’ve wanted to make sure that before I put something permanent on my skin that it was genuinely meaningful for me.

        As far as liking tattoos in general, I have seen some exquisitely beautiful tattoos, and I have seen some that I don’t like at all. I tend to prefer those that show off an aspect of someone’s personality and are obviously meaningful. In the long run, though, no one is getting or not getting a tattoo based on what I think about it, which is as it should be. Something so personal, and permanent, should be the right of the person who will be wearing that art and no one else’s.

  7. MK says:

    As women (as humans really) we need to inform the individuals around us, men and women, about how we need to be treated when we are in a relationship with them. In every relationship.

    If someone makes you feel uncomfortable with their words or opinions that needs to be addressed with that individual. More often than not, you’ll find a way to resolve whatever issue could have arised before it becomes an issue. It does you no good to get hurt/offended, say nothing, and then let it take up space in your brain. Address it and let it go. If you can’t walk away from the individual and feel a-okay after that conversation then you should start evaluating that relationship.

    I think that people are super good at reacting and super shitty at communicating and resolving.

    • Strangely Rational says:

      I don’t disagree with what you’re saying about individual relationships, but this sort of thing represents a much broader social issue than that.

      There are far too many men in this society who believe that their opinions about women’s bodies are paramount. We see this everywhere, from seemingly minor issues like the guy’s attitude in this situation to major, serious issues like sexual assault and reproductive rights.

      At the core of those major issues is the sort of attitude that these types of guys demonstrate – women’s bodies aren’t there for women; they’re there for men. Objectifying comments may appear to be no big deal and something that can be handled on an individual level, but they’re at the root of so much harm when they add up and become amplified that we have to address it on a larger scale.

      What’s most important now is how we raise our boys, and I don’t just mean “we” as in mothers, but “we” as in everyone who has the ability to be an influence. Not that we should just let adult men slide, but things like sexism or racism tend to require generations to correct because too many individuals brought up a certain way will not change, or at least not enough. Especially if they belong to the privileged class and have a major stake in maintaining the status quo.

      So absolutely we should be standing up for ourselves in our relationships, but that’s just the beginning.

      • ExtremelyIrritable says:

        Please believe me whole heartedly when I say I am all for individuals rights in staking out personal boundaries. I believe in bodily autonomy from birth to death regardless of age, sex, gender, or social standing. I have intervened on behalf of women who have been harassed. I would intervene in any human rights violation, maybe up to and including my own death.

        And while Sun Tzu said something like “pay attention to little things, big things take care of themselves.” I don’t believe it to be true in this context. All I see is a bunch of people trying to assert their own realities and draw their own boundaries. Unsupported assertions made with ridiculous hubris and lack of evidence have been made. Fortunately this only comes at the cost of a couple hypothetical people living in contorted imaginary cages…some made of colon tissue.

        The argument as last stated seems to indicate that little problems become big problems. And as a hypothetical, that can’t be disproven. And with concrete examples, I am willing to agree that it’s true. There are definitely insidious undercurrents that affect social behavior. I just do not believe this is the example you would want to use given the severe lack of context.

      • WhoAmI says:

        Too many men who think their opinion matter.
        Too many men who think they should word it.
        And so little men who actually have more than one interesting thing floating in their brain.
        Lord have mercy.

      • KM says:

        Change has to start somewhere. No one person is going to change a major social issue by themselves. If we as educated people, men and women began communicating with one another in a respectful, meaningful and concise way and stopped being so reactive then we would see change begin.

        If we receive a rude/objectifying/unwanted comment and react with an equally rude/objectifying/unwanted comment then what do we accomplish? Nothing. I am guilty of this at times because it can be entertaining and sometimes I get bored but I know that my negative reaction isn’t helping anything and certainly isn’t showing people how to treat me in a respectful way.

        I think it is also important to point out that every woman and man has a different perspective on what is considered objectifying of themselves. As much as it is the OP’s prerogative to feel objectified by the comment; for me, I wouldn’t have been bothered by the comment one bit. I know what I look like. I would be mad if someone commented on my intelligence or my ability to fucking rock it at my job. I wouldn’t have felt objectified because I wouldn’t feel that that is the intent of the individual. If he slapped my ass or grabbed some tit while saying it, hell, even if he licked his lips while saying it… that is a completely different story.

        And I agree with IRRITABLE, you don’t head into a conversation with someone with the intent of just talking to someone. When you make a statement you expect a response. If she said “hey, I am thinking of getting a tattoo” and he said “I think that is fucking brilliant, your beautiful skin is like a canvas!” would people still be outraged? He would still be commenting on her appearance and likening her to an object. Is the real problem here the lack of validation?

        I honestly don’t understand all the hoopla surrounding this.

        I think Coke said in some earlier post that people can’t “make” you feel one way or another. How you feel will depend on how you respond.

        • Daffodil says:

          Wow, “victims just need to explain politely” and “getting mad doesn’t help anything” and “it wouldn’t offend me” and “it’s your fault if you feel hurt” all in one go. We have bingo.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            MK, in a discussion forum where the exact quotes are immediately available in the preceding post, it is perfectly fine for a responder to use quotation marks around an obvious paraphrase. It indicates that “this is what I’m interpreting you to be saying” and separates those thoughts from the responder’s.

            Casual discussion board/social media posts do not have to conform to strict journalistic standards. (And I say this as a formally educated English nerd with some experience in journalism, so I haven’t come by this opinion lightly.)

    • Cuttlefish says:

      People process things differently. Sometimes you can’t tell what it is that bothers you about what someone said until you’ve had time to think it over. Sometimes you know, but you don’t know how to put it into words right away. Some people get frozen by shock when someone says something shitty, and only later find their voice. I agree that talking it out (or at least trying to) at some point is important, but I think the sentiment that “if you can’t walk away from the individual and feel a-okay after that conversation then you should start evaluating that relationship” isn’t particularly fair.

      • MK says:

        I get that, but still think that feeling okay after something was said to you is important. It won’t always happen immediately of course, but recognizing that they said something that upset you doesn’t mean you need to internalize it. It isn’t about you, it’s about them and their limited knowledge about you.

        (I’ve been the ‘victim’ verbally, physically and emotionally. I don’t take this subject lightly.)

  8. Soooooooooooooooo says:

    I think as a man, no one ever tells you you’re too pretty to _______. It feels like a compliment when you’re a young girl or ugly, but it gets ugly fast. You’re too pretty to carry those groceries. Someone as angelic as you shouldn’t have to go without. You’re too beautiful to be a cop, you’re a farrari that’s better suited for a war tank type of woman. You’re too gorgeous to be a dr, that’s too much school and the pay out isn’t worth it, you can get a rich husband to take care of you. I just turned 30, and I’m tired of being told in some way, shape, or form that I’m too pretty to ____.

    At least dignify me with a real reason. Because you think carrying groceries is a mans job? That’s cool, pick up these groceries then, see u upstairs. Because you think men should take care of women so I should never go without? Cool, take care of this rent then. Because you think women are too weak to be a cop? Oh ok, that’s not cool. Because pretty women shouldn’t aspire to do anything in life? That’s not cool either.

    Why shouldn’t she get a tattoo again? Because she’s the equivalent of a farrari? Or because he thinks her body is more important than any reason she could want a tattoo? It’s offensive.

        • VeryTired says:

          Strangely enough the medication I’m taking for my back is actually giving me nightmares. You win! But we are all in for probably four years of nightmares.

      • hurtfeelingsreport says:

        man, will you just fucking listen to other perspectives for once? perspectives that you don’t find appealing, even? perspectives that are validated, not by you, my dear edgelord, but by experience and perspective and constant, prevailing oppression? did you know that sexism isn’t something men get to claim, because sexism/racism/etc necessarily implies that the oppressed have been oppressed historically and continue to be oppressed under current social/cultural constructs — constructs that have been normalized? or are you still in your 20s with limited world experience, lacking the wisdom and humility that will, lord have mercy christ have mercy, come with age? (ps don’t cite your trip to ecuador or w/e as “world experience.” like literally no one gives a fuck.)

        you seem to be laboring under the impression that your advice and opinion is perpetually & implicitly being solicited. you also have a lot of arrogance about your own writing and position in this world that you may want to reexamine (there’s some unsolicited advice! but wait wassss iitttt, because maybe by making mention of your writing skillz you were just asking for it blah blah blah, wet fart noise, etc). your lack of self-awareness is staggering. the assumption that your take on a situation involving sexism is just as valid as a woman’s take on the same situation is embarrassing. when you devolved into using gendered insults upthread, i actually laughed out loud because it was so perfect.

        earlier, you stated: “I’m sorry that you’ve all suffered such horrible objectifying experiences that you feel a need to exorcise them from this demon child whom you have never even met.”

        you’re wrong. we have met him. i meet him every day. it’s flippant, casual sexism and male arrogance coded into every day language and behaviors, and then the eye-rolling MRA call-to-arms that surely follows (“what about his intennnntttioooonnss” *jacks off into a subreddit forever*). it’s so common for women to encounter this that it’s boring.

        tl;dr you’re a dime a dozen, and each time a dude makes this argument, he does so with such theatrical rhetoric, like he’s the first fucking person to point out x, y, and z to women who feel affronted, and we’re all so lucky for our ability to languish in the slow burn of his word craft (or i guess the cut/pasted genius of…lol, shakespearean insults are you fucking fist fucking me with that right now, dude?? do you still quote monty python? holy fuck.)

        • VeryOn says:

          You what I find really hilarious? I hardly read anything you wrote after I got your attempt to insult me. So there I am scrolling down and I landed on “tl;dr.”
          Isn’t that fucking beautiful?! I didn’t read your shit for exactly the reason you would like to dismiss me! high five!

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            cool, i don’t give a fuck. i was bored with you about 10 hours ago. i’m watching a terrible henry rollins movie now.

  9. Miranda says:

    I find the fact that someone needs to ask for permission from a blogger to be offended by some guy’s compliment far more annoying than the guy’s comment. And what’s worse is the mental masturbation (including mine, obviously) that follows in the comments. I wish everyone had our 1st world problems.

    • Soooooooooooooooo says:

      The rain boots I ordered won’t be here until Tuesday. But it’s raining today. I don’t wish that on anyone.

    • Monochromicorn says:

      Misogyny is everyone’s problem?

      First world problems are like, “I couldn’t get a latte today.”

      I don’t think sexism goes in that category.

      • Chris says:

        Well, great, now I look like a jackass for liking the statement in a bubble devoid of context. And, yes, I fucked up the pot of coffee at the office today, and really wish I was at home drinking the Texas Hill Country brew I keep in the fridge while I knock out 100 pages of “Winter of the World.”

        As per the usual, MonoChromicorn, you’ve very simply posted more than most of us do in 10x the words.

      • Miranda says:

        It certainly is but not in this analogy. The US is a nation that considers everyone to be equal and gives them the same rights. Sure, there are wankers there like there are everywhere. Misogyny is a HUGE problem and should be fought fiercely in countries that it’s institutionalized like Iran or Afghanistan. Showing your hair there can result in a woman being beaten up. The notion of getting a tattoo is unfathomable. These are the women who are in need of solidarity.
        So, sorry for not empathizing with a woman who intends to get a tattoo and gets a stupid response from some guy who told her she’s pretty by comparing her to a Ferrari.

        • WhoAmI says:

          Oh, misogyny is still institutionalized in “equal rights” countries (it is in pretty much every country on the globe). The results are far less abherrant to us, sure, but they’re still there. Savvy, low-key sexism is still sexism.

        • Strangely Rational says:

          Something isn’t necessarily a first world problem just because you can find someone who has it worse.

          This is about sexism and objectification of women, and that’s a serious problem in our society. The topic that triggers a sexist comment – in this case, a tattoo – isn’t really relevant. It’s not just that one thing by itself; it’s a series of comments and criticisms and judgments about women’s bodies that we hear throughout our entire lives. Each individual thing might seem innocuous or trivial, but it’s part of a larger system that has the ability to affect our own ideas and decisions about who we’re supposed to be.

          Please, let’s not decide that just because American women are more privileged than women in other parts of the world, that means it’s no big deal if we’re treated as second class citizens in our society. What’s so difficult about solidarity among all women? It’s not like empathizing with one woman means less empathy for another. On the contrary, I think that defending women’s rights in all situations is better for all of us.

    • Nina says:

      Why don’t you criticize our culture which is always pressuring women to be nice and shames them when they express anger? You can see it playing out in this comment section. “He’s giving you a compliment, jesus christ.” “But his intentions were good!” And then all the comments that amount to “you’re getting angry over nothing”. Don’t shit on the question writer for trying to navigate through it.

  10. Chris says:

    Many answers here remind me of the South Park episode about replacing the town flag. “Well, I can see how some people feel it’s bad, but I can also respect the historical value.”

    It was a flag of 3 white people lynching a black one. In the end, they changed it to a multi-racial group lynching, and everyone was happy.

  11. WhoAmI says:

    So many butthurt, myopic men in this comment section, it’s not even funny.
    Some of which I had some fragment of respect for beforehand. I’m disappointed.
    I guess that’s how it feels to hear your nice co-worker proudly say he voted for Trump.

    • it's clear says:

      You sound like a myopic cunt. You’re grasping, and desperate. Bringing Trump into this is the lowest form of intelligence.

      I voted for Hilary despite a bunch of broken women like you making lame assumptions. Get over yourself.

        • it's clear says:

          It’s a fair assumption considering most are an “unidentified gender” yet you automatically attacked men.

          But if you’re a man, that’s great, you myopic little puss boy.

          • Chris says:

            Puss boy? Really. That’s on the level of when I tell someone to “eat a billion dicks and die.” The difference is that I’m intentionally being ridiculous.

          • it's clear says:

            I think nothing is a thing. Just exist in reality, on realities terms. Life is great on my end 🙂

          • it's clear says:

            I’m consciously being a prick with good reason. Most people who comment in here are soft as fuck, on the road to nowhere. I’m lashing out with a harsh dose of much needed reality. Coquette literally used to DRILL punks and bitches, would only respond to quality inquiries too…but man, times have changed and she’s now a broken chump.

            I’m balancing out the embarrassing shit stains of the world by telling it like it is. I’m fair and pack a punch; fully aware I’ll go too far if you strike me as a crybaby cause you’re a joke and jokes get TROLLED. It’s difficult to say whether these lames are actually deeply damaged and it’s merited, but I’m putting my chips on the fact that they’re just incredibly weak and doomed. DEAL WITH IT.

            Unless you’re actually diagnosed with something: HUMAN THE FUCK UP!

            And you Whoami, can politically correct my above average dick. Fuck off.

          • WhoAmI says:

            You’re not telling it as it is or being controversial. You’re just a teen boy with too much time on his hands. You know nothing.

          • Monochromicorn says:

            Soft as fuck and on the road to no where?

            OK, what are your big, hard credentials?

            Let’s hear it.

          • it's clear says:

            I have nothing to prove, why share my personal life with you?

            Work hard, maintain grit and have heart, because the results are sublime.

          • Kai says:

            Wow, this looks like the kind of dude who unironically likes Boondock Saints and plays Wonderwall at every fucking party.

            What do you call the male equivalent of a Basic Bitch?

          • Monochromicorn says:

            Whatever, it’s clear. We’re all soft but you have grit. Ha! You have no idea who you are talking to in this column.

            Why are you here? Did you find a space full of women and LBGT and you just can’t wait to come here and say that we are pussys? That us soft idiots must confront the throbbing hard truth of your trump righteousness? Do you cum on the screen after every “gritty” comment and go lie down and spend hours regaling yourself with stories of your comment thread superiority over soft women and queers? WTF, dude. You’ve never said a damn interesting thing here, you clearly just come here to shit on people you despise to feel better about yourself.

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            hahaha, i just ugly laughed at this. you’re absolutely correct. reverse racism. my mercy.

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            this guy is the same one who wrote a really noxious response to the “stay wild” knuckle tattoo OP by saying, essentially, “visible tattoos won’t get you anywhere in this world, least not in a position like mine! i shake hands with CEOs!! REAL ones!! and– and, guys, and– and i i’m in my mid-20s and i make, like, FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS a year! you heard me right, ladies, 50k. a cooooool 50k. that’s above average in many midwestern cities.”

            that deafening sound you hear is a tectonic shift brought on by the overwhelming weight of panties simultaneously dropping across the land.

            good luck out there, kiddo.

          • VeryOn says:

            Egad @HFR, as right as you might be with your facetiousness and sarcasm in that comment, it really is an ugly way to put it. It’s hard to scroll when I’m holding my nose with one hand.

        • Bets says:

          You’re not a woman? I always thought you were one!

          This makes me happy for some reason. You have traits I rarely see in men. I mean this as a compliment (hopefully you’ll take it as one).

          • WhoAmI says:

            Ha, you’re being magnanimous with me here, I’m still a man. But yeah I’m a big pansy I guess, I’ve never been a man’s man and frankly I don’t intend to be. Thanks.

          • grouch says:

            Who would have thought, a randomly-generated pink user picture may not indicate a woman…

            When “Who am I?” becomes “Whoa, mi?”

          • WhoAmI says:

            To be frank that’s not the first time someone has mistaken me for a woman, here or on another website. I’m not mad about it tho.

          • Strangely Rational says:

            People mistake me for a man with alarming frequency, even on more female-oriented forums and sometimes even after I’ve made comments that strongly imply my gender.

            When I’m being optimistic, I assume that a gender-neutral name and avatar would lead people to assume male by default. When I’m not being optimistic (more often), I’m guessing the word “rational” attached to posts that tend to favor logic over emotion is what’s doing it. That and the fact that I do often defend the male position, when it’s reasonably defensible anyway.

  12. Key says:

    “Like, I was talking to my friend and he said his girlfriend was mad at him. I said, “What happened?” He goes: “Well, I guess I, uh… I guess I said something, and, uh… and then she got her feelings hurt.” That’s a weird way to phrase it: “She got her feelings hurt. I said something, and then SHEEE…” Could you more remove yourself from responsibility? “She got her feelings hurt.” It’s like saying, “Yeah, I shot this guy in the face, and then I guess he got himself murdered. I don’t know what happened. He leaned into it.”

    Yeah, so I guess I gave her a compliment, and she went and felt herself demeaned. JEEZ. PC culture, man.

      • Key says:

        Do you know quotation marks? Do you know jokes? Do you know metaphor?

        The crux of comparison in the joke here was “could you more remove yourself from responsibility”, but you managed to hear “blah blah blah murder”. Good job.

        • it's clear says:

          Maybe press ‘enter’ next time, and format it in such a way that it comes across as an intelligible comment. You halfwit fuck.

          • HaIvan says:

            The paragraph has quotes around it. Come on. It’s okay if you didn’t realize at first it was a quote. There’s really no need to be blamestorming

          • Cuttlefish says:

            Because you’re too much of a fucking moron to exercise basic reading comprehension (that no one else struggled with, mind you) the poster is the “halfwit fuck” in this equation. OK. Makes sense.

            Dude, you’re fucking hilarious.

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            rofl, what a refreshing, new rhetorical tactic, It’s Clear! say something that you deem off-putting or unsettling in response to someone’s criticism! terrific! don’t listen to them; you’ve got this writing thing on lock. you’re kind of like an unsung genius in that way?

        • it's clear says:

          I’ve seen all of Louis CK, been watching since his earliest special. Am up to date on his series too. I Google the trash presented above it. Oh, his monologue on NBC’s SNL during politically correct times. Fuck off!

          • Key says:

            Then enjoy.

            “Self-love is a good thing but self-awareness is more important. You need to once in a while go ‘Uh, I’m kind of an asshole.”

            ― Louis C.K.

          • hurtfeelingsreport says:

            wow, an arrogant idiot who feels validated by louis ck. what a strange and fascinating specimen.

          • Betsy says:

            No, I care about the social context that makes it possible for you to delude yourself into thinking anybody cares. Hence why I’m telling you to fuck off. Otherwise, go wink at your mother.

  13. LO says:

    HOW does this innocuous post have almost 200 comments!?

    Damn Coq, how aren’t tired of these comment sections? This is fucking exhausting.

    • VeryIrritable says:

      I’m partly responsible for that. Flat on my back in bed for three days I had the choice of reading, which puts me to sleep if I’m laying down (causing migraines), watching news that drives me completely insane, or writing. Since I didn’t have anything I wanted to write about, I addressed some nuance.

      People who can’t imagine anything beyond their own hostile interpretation tried to pick fights with me at various turns. They fell victim to my entertainment.

      For those who find it tiring, you have my apology. Anyone who came at me, not so much; I’d ring that bell again.

      It’s not exhausting if you don’t read it all, it’s discipline for the eye.
      A good example would be completely ignoring a couple people after they laughably attempt to insult you. It’s also not exhausting if you write more easily than you read. 🙂

      I’m feeling better now and I won’t be the one fueling this thread any further.

      Vi
      p.s. heaven help you all if I’m ever in the hospital.

      • Niqi says:

        Yeah, sure, dude. Construct a narrative where you had a legitimate reason to spend such an absurd amount of time and effort losing your shit over this simple question and trying to convince everyone the asker didn’t have the right to be uncomfortable. Convince yourself you’re the victim who got “attacked” because people dared to call you on your bullshit, the same bullshit we’re all fucking sick of hearing everywhere else and didn’t want to leave unchallenged on Dear CQ.

        You were the one picking a fight, dude. Saying other people were the aggressors doesn’t make it so.

        You didn’t pour thousands of words into this because you couldn’t care less about the topic and were just bored with nothing better to do. My guess is something about CQ’s answer or the opposition to the “he meant it as a compliment so you’re not allowed to be upset” argument struck a nerve with you. Maybe you said something you thought was complimentary to a woman and she got angry at you, and instead of considering why your words might make her angry, you decided she should consider your intentions. Maybe you said the exact same bumper sticker/ferrari cliché and still feel you were misunderstood and wronged because a woman got mad.

        Since you’re so into suggesting possibilities, there’s no reason to argue with that, right? Arguing that’s not what happened is attacking me. Not to mention laughable, because I need to make it very clear that your opinion means soooooooooo little to me and my ego is not wounded at allllllllllll.

        Also, you see what I’m fuckin’ doing up there? Imagining your perspective? That’s all we fucking want. Instead of constantly asking women to imagine your perspective, imagine theirs, for once. Listen when they tell you what hearing degrading “compliments” feels like after the first few times, and listen when they explain why, and imagine it being inescapable. The problem here is not lack of empathy for you and the guy who made that stupid comment. It’s lack of empathy for us.

        • VeryOn says:

          You are so astoundingly up your own ass that I only have to read eleven words before completely dismissing the rest of what you write without reading it.
          Bye miqqi.

          • VeryAmused says:

            Thank you so much for that parting thought. The fact that you would use a euphemism for female genitalia as a derogatory term proves my suspicion that you’re a self loathing “feminist.” Please make huge note of the use of quotes…in fact, feel free to blow them
            out of proportion.

            And it’s beautifully ironic and appropriate that I don’t consider anything you say an insult! Cunt.

            I hadn’t exactly promised I wouldn’t fuel this thread; so I take this liberty in laughing at you.

            I’m actually surprised. If anyone had asked me what insult would have the least impact but have the most entertainment value, I dare say I wouldn’t have been creative enough to think of that. Well done! It’s almost like leaving it on a high note, except I know that you can’t stop. You’re addicted to paddling.

            row row row your boat

          • RocketGrunt says:

            The whole “I didn’t read what you wrote” thing you keep pulling is the textual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming, “LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”

          • Niqi says:

            What’s beautifully ironic is making the wild claim that “douchecanoe” is a misogynistic slur meaning vagina (lmfao what), and then calling me a cunt.

            What’s also ironic is how you claim I’m doing things you’re doing before you can be accused of doing them. It’s like there’s a part of you self-aware enough to see your shitty behavior, and yet you won’t stop.

            “I won’t be the one fueling this thread any further.”
            And then you accuse me of being unable to stop responding, when your obsession with getting the last word in these comments is bordering on creepy.

            Classic abuse tactic, y’know. Accuse the other person of what you’re doing.

            And douchecanoe wasn’t meant to be an attack on your esteem, it was dismissive. But I can see how you’re getting those mixed up, what with screaming about how you’re not reading what I’m saying like it’s gonna hurt me, and all.

          • VeryOn says:

            That is true. But in my circle of friends “paddling the flesh canoe” is very well established due to a shared comedic reference. That same flesh canoe also holds douches. And if you’re intellectually honest you will have trouble finding a single male reference for using a douche for anything other than female hygiene even though noses get the second most popular usage. Nobody has ever said a douche is a male hygiene product. Whatevs. It was my equivalency and I get to decide how I used it.

          • WhoAmI says:

            dude… bro… some people douche their asshole homie… some of them men… pal… have you ever been around gay people bro…

      • hurtfeelingsreport says:

        you didn’t address any nuance and everything you said was boring. if you go to the hospital, feel free to write here again. no one will feel attacked or scared, i promise you. you just spouted some tired bullshit that women hear on a daily basis. free shrugs!

        get back to school, kiddo.

  14. OP says:

    i tried to follow the WWCQD motto on this one before i saw it was posted, and it ended up being a combination of responses #1 and #2.

    CQ: thank you for posting this. i’m a long time-reader and it’s still surreal to see this here.

  15. definitely not batman says:

    Where did all these Žižek fuckboys come from. That dumb motherfucker is a bro-philosopher. Feel free to ignore him, especially with regards to gender.

    • hurtfeelingsreport says:

      i was thinking the same thing. don’t worry, sun tzu was also used up-thread in a desperate clamor to appear learned. i think the same person also got down on some nihilism. all the moron stars aligned in this comments section.

      • VeryOn says:

        Oh god, is my desperation so transparent? I have to learn how to put makeup on to cover that particular blemish. Maybe if I put some eyeliner around my self deprecation they won’t notice how many pounds of zizek are poking over my belt. Maybe if I wear a niqab over my vocabulary they won’t have unnatural urges. I hate being objectified, so I should try to conform.

  16. Romanian Psycho says:

    This comment section got sad fast…from enlighting discussion, all i see now i bickering, people caring more on having their belief confirmed than a true open discussion.
    Again, I echo my sentiment, that the bubbles are getting stronger and more extreme and harder and harder to find a bridge of understanding.
    Because everyone thinks their side is right, and righteous.

    • VeryOn says:

      i don’t know what I find worse, the insistence that any informed reference is necessarily egotistical facade or that efforts to tear other people down are petty and unimaginative. no ground is gained. And when you talk about building bridges, we end up back at intent which so few here are willing to recognize as a valid force, goal, or instrument.

      i knew going in that commenting here would have to be its own reward because very few honest and thoughtful responses grow here. the same weeds repeat their form without variation or flower.

      i would even read the worst arguments of the moment if they were creative, heartfelt, or interesting.

      Bile is the ingredient of choice when they don’t have heart. And derogatory remarks are used in place of unique perspective.

      It makes me sad because if I were CQ, I would be less motivated to get a forum up and running knowing that this particular Internet pipe is full of sewage. some of it is admittedly mine.

      Being that everyone has to, and it’s healthy to do it regularly, thanks for giving us a place to shit CQ!

      • Key says:

        Still on intent:

        “3. The Impact of Your Actions Is More Significant Than the Intent

        Cool. You didn’t mean to contribute to the objectification of queer women when you made that lesbian porn joke. Perhaps you even think that you’re so “enlightened” as a “feminist man” that we should just know that you “didn’t mean it like that.” In fact, maybe you even think that you were being “subversive” when you said it. Okay.

        But from a woman’s perspective, that doesn’t matter, because we still have to feel the effects of that mindset every single day – and your bringing that to the foreground has a negative impact on us, no matter what the hell your intent was.

        Many men don’t do hurtful things maliciously. They may be doing them subconsciously, adhering to the ways in which they’ve been taught to behave, as all of us do.

        Other men, of course, are intentionally violent. But the effects of both can be incredibly damaging.

        Surely, we’re less likely to harbor resentment towards someone who stepped on our toes accidentally than we are towards someone who stomped on them with malevolence – especially when accountability is had and an apology is issued. But our goddamn toes still hurt.

        To a gender minority, there’s very little difference between the impact of inadvertent and intentional harm. A man who makes you feel unsafe by accident is as harmful to you as one who does it on purpose.

        So no matter how well-intentioned you are, you’re not off the hook when you hurt people. And you need to be willing to take responsibility for that.”

        PS. We’re not without heart. We’re without fucks to give to frankly disingenuous arguments we’ve heard a billion other times before. It tastes like bile to you but it’s actually hard-earned backbone. An acquired taste. (Mix it with some genuine empathy; a willingness to amuse the thought that a hundred similar experiences can’t be all paranoid hysterical projection; and a nice a glass of port wine; and you may come to enjoy it).

        • VeryOn says:

          What lesbian porn joke? Wtf lesbian porn joke?

          “Many men don’t do hurtful things maliciously. …taught to behave, as all of us do.”

          Look, that’s why one of the more sane posters said that we are all responsible for explaining what makes us comfortable and uncomfortable. And it’s why I have repeatedly voiced respect for “clapback.”

          I’ve never said intent was more important. At best it’s half. Ends, means. Etc. forever.

          Hard earned backbone, fuck yeah.

          And I have tried to voice room for the collective experiences but people can’t get past their own projections to come from the other angle. You’ve done a very good job of trying to build that bridge.

          But some of the reflexive shit I’ve seen around here is either so amazingly traumatic that they still haven’t processed it, or they’re just assholes. I try to see each context individually.

          • Key says:

            It’s just an example. Notice the quotation marks. I lifted this from another website which articulated the nature of intent in a way I found relevant.

          • VeryOn says:

            Oh! Whew. Yeah, please don’t copypasta. Please? I’m totally willing to go to the mat with specifics in context and strip metaphors. I can’t connect to your actual identity if you borrow it from someone else. When I saw the quotes it looked like it could have been anyone’s enumeration here but I couldn’t tell who, if even mine.

        • VeryOn says:

          I have to check on this:
          “But from a woman’s perspective,… your bringing that to the foreground has a negative impact on us, no matter what the hell your intent was.”

          Are you really saying that because some guy posters here said, “it was just a compliment” that you are retraumatized or unable to process your negative feelings because we brought the male dominant framework back to the foreground? You are still writhing in agony because it’s been pointed out by a guy that some guy is probably just derpy?

          I can kind of understand that, but it leaves me with what is either tragic or comic; women carrying a list of responses just in case a guy compliments them so they can assert their identity and boundaries.

          If this is supposed to be some kind of safe space, I was completely unaware. But I can’t feel responsible for any anguish here as I have continuously and repeatedly made an effort to validate whatever choice the poster made. And I even respect arguments made against me without ad hominem attacks or other generally insulting tones.

          • Key says:

            You’ve gotta be shitting me.
            I think you might be too self-absorbed to actually empathize. You talk a good game, but then that’s your interpretation of things? Without malice, son, that’s as clueless as it gets.

            A torrent of folks say, in one way or another, “it was just a compliment” (code: don’t be oversensitive, shut up). We get pissed off because we’ve gotten our valid feelings over shitty comments dismissed a thousand times before. It’s not a question of trauma, your-experience-looks-like-my-experience-let’s-all-waaah-together. It’s a question of identifiable, predictable dynamics, of this-is-part-of-a-larger-recognizable-systemic-issue-that-won’t-go-away-and-I’m-sick-of-playing-nice-and-accommodating. And then shitty comments – “derpy” – don’t exist in a vacuum. Sexist derpy comes from sexism inside. You do not accidentally sprout sexist stuff when drunk or high or nervous if you weren’t sexist to begin with.

            “I can kind of understand that, but it leaves me with what is either tragic or comic; women carrying a list of responses just in case a guy compliments them so they can assert their identity and boundaries.”
            That’s a wild, barf-inducing caricature. Do you carry a list of responses just in case someone plants a hurtful comment on you? No? You can defend and assert yourself just fine? My word. Very good. Then again, you’re probably not used to being talked about and treated like public property and belonging to a hive mind. You’re not confronted with the same tired arguments and dynamics over and over again. You’re not socialized to dismiss your own feelings and perceptions over everyone else’s needs. Yet still I assure you there’s a third option to your conclusion: enforcing our boundaries and dignity in a human, organic, non-hypervigilant way, according to each woman’s ability and nature, and not some imaginary manual of lists we get in the mail when we start menstruating.

            (It may just feel hypervigilant from the outside because when assholes don’t realize they’re being assholes and don’t care to stop being assholes – like when they’ve accidentally made a hurtful, objectifying comment, for example – they raise their arms and go “JEEZ, what NOW? Can’t catch a break! Stop being so touchy about EVERYTHING!” – instead of, you know, trying to figure out what the problem may be.)

            Bottom line:”When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don’t get to decide that you didn’t.” (And yes, I copy pasted that.)

  17. Josh says:

    dear coke,

    i don’t know if this has already been said but this comment thread is precisely why i vehemently oppose you creating some type of forum. i really love the work that you do but people on the internet are determined to ruin everything.

    shut it down. (pretty please)

    • guiliana says:

      not only that, it has becomr an echo chamber. long before it devolved into name calling, it had become a situaion of group think and closed mindedness to new ideas – and at times, hostility. in group vs out group, and no potential for a intelligent discussion. such a situation is inevitable, but it really does nothing to add to coketalk’s column, which has its own flaws of coketalk being less than flexible in her thought. i am not sure i can keep reading the column; but i’ve come to the conclusion that the comments are certainly useless to peruse at this point.

      • VeryWhat says:

        I’m sorry you haven’t gotten anything out of it, but I’ve gotten a lot.
        I’m more aware of how easily reframing something can cause a perpetuated reactive response.
        I’ve seen how rigidly context is maintained in order to uphold validation of past interpretations.
        And while I definitely intellectually understood why so many women jumped to the worst interpretation of the situation, something about the repeated exposure to rejection of my point brought home the truth, irony, and parity in that views probability.
        I have gotten to write by sourcing motivations that aren’t internally generated.
        And while you are more right than wrong about close mindedness, I’ve seen glimmers of change here and there.
        It was therapeutic in keeping me awake while being heavily drugged.
        My faith in estimating humane behavior as a cross section was restored when a couple people chimed in with sane, thoughtful, non hostile responses.
        I found out how far I’m willing to go in insulting people who are clearly not capable of creative comprehension or response.
        I’ve built a model of how flippant I can be without sabotaging my point.

        As for flaws in the column, the comment section is your only place to address those flaws and instead of trying to, you slag it. So you deserve the flaws you get.

        My point here is that the comment section isn’t about you or what you find useful in exactly the same way the column isn’t about you. If you’re not getting anything out of it, it’s because you’re shitty at junk shopping or you didn’t bring any shit in for consignment.

        The comments are about what individuals find useful in contributing, or unfortunately, attempting to detract or reduce. If the comments are truly as useless as you say, then you are intellectually impaired for reading them. Being intelligent is as much about knowing what to look at as what to ignore. If you can’t skip individual posts, don’t bother reading the comments FFS. And filtering is pretty strongly linked to identity by the way.

        Of course I could present a list of intent, but nobody cares. 😀

        • Jessica Sen says:

          I too, get a lot out of Coquette’s forums.

          I always have, but now more than ever.

          I’ve just been released from a long stay in a mental institution and am now on house arrest. I can’t drink, I can’t smoke weed, I can’t go out unaccompanied by my parents. The situation is bad. Coquette keeps me alive. It’s like having friends you’ve never met, being able to laugh with them, fight with them, listen to their interestingly diverse viewpoints, and sometimes even amuse yourself as they split the atom.

          How dare you try to shut down a place just because you find no value in it for yourself? You narcissist.

    • VeryIrritable says:

      Seriously Josh? You would petition the government to pave over a skate park because you don’t skate and you don’t like skaters? Nobody is forcing you to read comments. Their existence has exactly zero fucking impact on the post and CQ response. So what the fuck bullshit line of reasoning is that? “Please don’t make a forum and shut down the comments because they aren’t useful to me personally?”

      • hurtfeelingsreport says:

        i agree, veryirritable.

        josh, chill out, dude. the whole internet is an arena of shit-flinging and posturing. don’t pretend you’re above it, that sucks. there has even been some good discussion here.

      • Strangely Rational says:

        Something I can agree with!

        This is hardly representative of standard people on the internet. There tends to be more intelligent conversation than on so many other comment sections out there.

  18. Jessica Sen says:

    Terrible trolls throwing shit out at each other just to know there’s someone out there on the other end of the virtual plasmic wall showing shit back at them. Basically, this is our way of saying “hey” to each other. It’s not our fault Trump made us so godamn grumpy.

    I’m part of this team of terrible trolls so if you are looking for something nice, peaceful, civil and quiet, I suggest you go to the reading room of a library.

    A revolution is beginning and this is the place for us to sharpen our wits and throw off steam.

    Also, congratulations on your shiny piece of new vocabulary – echo chamber. Sadly you’re using it wrong.

  19. Zilla says:

    Veryirritable, I usually love reading your comments, and usually I can take a problematic position with a grain of salt. I have to as part of my career.

    But you’ve revealed to the entire (devoted) readership over the course of a long series of clearly well thought out, but obviously misguided comments how very wrong you are. And clearly, you’re too stubborn to just accept that this is one time that you done fucked up. You have to keep defending a weak position, one that relies on sheer semantics to avoid the “of course Coke wasn’t aiming that at me” point.

    Whether you give it the fuck up or not doesn’t matter now. My opinion obviously doesn’t matter, because no doubt, if you respond to this at all, it will be with a half-baked asshole response in the same vein as Coke’s, just less intellectually guided and more ad hominem. Everyone knows you for who and what you are. I for one am mostly glad to find this out now, so that I know exactly the calibre of opinion I’m dealing with in future.

    Thanks for demonstrating that my apprehension with gender relations is well formed. Also, fuck you, you sexist piece of trash.

    • hurtfeelingsreport says:

      yeah, i agree. professionally, i get to deal with this shit all the time, as well. you know someone’s backed into a corner when they double down as much as he has, or uses the ol’ i’m-not-listening-lalala tactic without any apparent irony. using gendered insults in a discussion about gender is also a weak strategy, and immediately deflates any credibility you may have built up. it sucks, but hopefully with awareness and experience he’ll grow into some stronger rhetorical skills. i got so bored, i started writing out a response last night but instead decided to get high and watch henry rollins deadpan his way through a terrible movie about being a fallen cannibal angel or some shit. 10/10 would recommend.

      • VeryMobile says:

        If you think I’m backed into a corner you have no grasp of dimension. If you think I doubled down on something you’ll have to tell me what.
        Please point me to the gendered insults so that I can apologize where appropriate and laugh where legitimate. It’ll be a nice walk.

        I haven’t attacked anyone who didn’t come at me first. And most of the shit in this comment section is people being mad because they want to be mad. Some are so lazy that they copy other people’s words as though they apply perfectly to the context of the dialogue. But that’s the thing isn’t it. You’re not here for dialogue if you paste.

        Also, He Never Died was the most perfect role for Henry. I love that movie even though it fails.to deliver in some consistency.

        • hurtfeelingsreport says:

          walk you through your own ineffective rhetoric? that’s a hard pass.

          also, i agree. henry was perfect for the role. “i don’t believe you!” “i don’t care.”

          • VeryDepressed says:

            Even you have to admit the irony and humor of being unable to persuade me when you are incapable of being persuaded.

            Also, I’ll point out that “ineffective rhetoric” is yet another attack because it’s not meant with the charity of coming to an understanding. Unless of course you’d like to argue that intent is worthy of consideration.

    • Jessica Sen says:

      Hey you guys. Will you please do me a favour and smoke 25% THC medicinal weed from a very large bong, while playing KCSM jazz music, drinking a quart of rum and having wild sex? I can’t do any of those things and I’m stuck in my parents’ house on house arrest. All this because I have bipolar and also because in hospital I met evil people and confessed that I’m The Coquette because I figured hey what the hell I’m already screwed so I might as well take one for the team. So now I’m on antipsychotics and I’m pretty sure I’m not psychotic. These fuckers take The Coquette as a sort of movement toward anti-psychiatry. Or am I The Coquette? The fuckers will never know. Only you guys will know.

  20. Jessica Sen says:

    Also, a boy I met in California started stalking me while I was studying in Australia. I have no idea how he did half the things he did – he had to be far more resourceful than I initially thought. I like him a lot, and the attention pushed me even further into mania and I was arrested 3 times in 2 weeks. I was trying to test the sphere of his influence – whether he had friends in the police. Also, I was running social experiments on police brutality. I would be handcuffed and pushed against a the police van and still be shouting “Hands up don’t shoot!” When I was in the cell I took off all my clothes and refused to put them on until I was released. I was released and brought to a hospital under the Mental Health Act instead. Is this normal? Would a normal person do this? I don’t think anything’s wrong with me. I have my own line of logic that always makes sense at the time…

    I’ve missed you guys… muah!

    • perspectivator says:

      Okay, you aren’t sounding better.
      I’m sorry to say that what you are experiencing and doing does not seem normal at all.
      I hope you get better.

      • Jessica Sen says:

        I’m sure anyone experiencing a sudden intervention in their lifestyle can attest to this feeling. How can I get better without losing my essence? How can I function better without having a boring life? I’m in tears. I don’t feel much like myself these days.

        • VeryOn says:

          Well, psychosis and mania is going to be really hard to deal with because as you said, you had a “line of logic” that made “sense at the time.” And if you don’t error correct along the way, you’ve suddenly lead yourself down the garden path into completely insane behavior. So it’s understandable that this happens and very understandable that you wouldn’t feel yourself. I hope you find a counselor who can help you cope.

        • Grouch says:

          I don’t think getting better necessarily means losing your essence. I’ve been mildly manic a couple of times, and while it was euphoric, and great – a part of me also found it monstrous. But is your essence being in and out of psych wards and house arrest? That sounds like a not-so-great thing to have as part of your identity.

          • Jessica Sen says:

            No, you’re right. I do want to address the mania. I just don’t think I’m psychotic. Then again, it’s ridiculous to be asking for an opinion on my mental health on an anonymous forum. It’s just nice to hear from some mad cats.

  21. Jessica Sen says:

    If anyone here has magical powers, can you please bless me with some adventure and freedom? I’m bored out of my mind and about to chew on my puppy and she’s innocent. Boredom makes good people do evil things, so I may cross over to the dark side and start slashing infants (never liked babies anyway).

    • Yeoja says:

      Want to chat? I don’t have bipolar, but I think I know what it’s like to feel compulsed to do insane shit and to freak out when people freak out and try to restrain you and then to go even further off the deep end in reaction…etc.

      Here:
      itshouldcomeonacone@gmail.com

  22. E. K. V. says:

    I find the comment disheartening not so much because he’s remarking on her body as if it is an object, but because this “bumper sticker on a Ferarri” remark is old, it’s everywhere and it simply means he’s not listening. Conversation with this fellow is bound to devolve into “am I right or am I right” over the beers and you will be driven mad. He’s devoid of imagination and thinks he’s clever, and I’d hate for you to have to kill him. Drift away and count yourself lucky!

  23. Kylie says:

    The guys first reaction to her getting a tattoo was how it affects her body. His comment is a compliment, but it shows how shallow he feels about her. When my gf showed me the tattoo she always wanted to get, I asked “what does that mean to you?” She explained it’s importance, it was very heart-warming. I don’t like tattoos so I told her “I think you are beautiful just the way you are. But if your heart is set on getting it, then it doesn’t change the way I feel about you.”

    There are ways to express your opinion and compliment girls without being a selfish, shallow dick.

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